The 5 Worst Things About Working in IT

ABOUT THIS EPISODE

Working in IT isn't always easy. There are certain aspects of the job that can simply be maddening.

In this episode, Geoffrey Wright, Global Solutions Owner for Mondelēz International, joins the show and we have a free-wheeling discussion about the 5 worst things about working in IT.

What we talked about:

- Every project needs a problem statement

- The illusion that tools will fix everything

- The relevance of SLAs vs. XLAs

- Technicians who do whatever they can to solve the problem

- People who hate their roles

For more amazing DEX content, including podcasts, articles and exclusive research, head over to the DEX Hub (dex.nexthink.com)

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It's kind of like again, if you guys, I always joke about this. I often find myself in places that are like m night Shamalan to the village. If you haven't seen the village, it's about a village in the sixteen hundreds, seventeen hundreds, right. They get the water, they got the wells to got this, they got that, and somebody just gets curious one day and just says, you know, what's beyond the woods, and all the people in this village say, don't go through the woods, don't look, don't, don't ever go into the woods. Fast forward. I'm going to ruin this movie for you guys. Somebody runs through the woods, right, so he runs through the woods, only to find out as they run to the edge of the woods for a full day's to run, they come to a major highway and up here's here's the MNIGHT Shamalan twist. It's present time. Cup, I really has you that you didn't just ruin a film, you nuke did I think that guy is like you, making twist films is what he does. Hey, tell us about the still presence. Why don't you, Jeff Coming? That's right, there's a Bruce Willis. Let me say this guy's you guys love it. You're listening to digital employee experience. A show for it. Change makers, let's get into the show. Hollow Change Maker's welcome to the deck show. I'm told, mccraw, he is ever with Tim Flower. What's happening? Tim Tom Does the same old stuff, but excited to talk about people, process and technology. We've talked with with Jeff a little bit. You know, the the tech people focus on the tech and the the people part is hard. So really looking forward to some conversation. slution exactly. We're going to have a little bit of a risk a conversation. We've got a fun feme and a fun guest in the person, as you say, of Jeff. Right, Jeff, welcome to the show. Please tell the listeners a little bit about yourself to get the ball rolling. Well, I'm currently a global solution owner at mandalize, the maker of Oreo and nine million other products. If you just google us, you'll see all the great stuff that we make. I'm in charge of the tools here. Chat bought the autonomous remote action stuff, all the nerdy stuff that most people in my space would love to work with. Gives me heartburn, but it's at the same time also a fun thing at all times. Excellent. So you're here today, Jeff, to talk about the five worst things about working in it. How you feeling about the theme? You feeling prepared? I Love Thee I am prepared, but I will tell you right now I don't know if we have that kind of time like but there's only five. Yeah, I don't I might do. I could do number one and two. Probably four hours days like again, hope you got a cup of coffee. Life. We've we've only got a limited amount of time. Okay, so I'm going to give a ball rolling myself right. It only feels fair because I've asked you to come armored with your own list. Okay, so I'm obviously not. I don't work in it per se. I work for for a technology company. I am, as Tim once infamously describe me on this very show, a guy from marketing. So I'm going to give give you and our listens a little insight into into not a list of the worst things about working in marketing, which again could go in a while, but but perhaps, arguablieve, a worst thing. So everybody, I think, knows that a lot of people who don't work in marketing tend to look at marketing and think that they could do a better job. Okay, that I think. That's I won't ask you to confirm or deny this. I wouldn't want to alienate you for I confirm. Okay, thanks you, and it's well known. Right, but that's not the worst thing. The worst thing is, I think as a market you do sometimes carry, in your weaker moments, for suspicion, the self suspicion that they are all correct. So I can tell you your worst your worst fans and your biggest fears. It's a pencil sharpener. You know it is. It's a pencil sharpener. I always have that anxiety in that and that stress around around that in general. All right, am I like the imposter syndrome. I'm like, what am I doing? I don't know, like I don't know what I'm doing, when none of us know we're doing nice. That's the I mean, I can talk about for that from a spiritual standpoint, but we're all just like flying around the goddamn universe on a marble, rite a blue marble in outer space. Like what do we know? Nobody knows what we're doing okay. So number one with a bullet. By the way,...

...problem statements, problem statements. And I don't necessarily know if it's a fundamental thing because all of us in it and most people that I work with in it, everyone, most people at work in it. They got into it because they love the tech, they love the cool toys. You know, every guy that came up to me that said, Oh, you have an iphone that stinks. Oh, why? Because, you know Android, I can run server two thousand and twelve on it and our DP to something. Yeaut of you, and I'm like why would you be Ourdp to a server on your android phone? First of all, like we're right, like it's always like, well, why? Well, you know, because I could do that. Like you can be sitting on a bus if you painting into a server from your phone. Don't you have a laptop? Did you come to give you a laptop? Yeah, but I could do if what if I'm like really, like, what if I'm on vacation with my kids and I'm a Disney world that I need to do this? Well, that's your problem, like that's your that's your pride. You're a Disney with your kids and you need to RDP, because you're here. If like, that's your problem. So the problem statement many, many, many, many companies and teams that I've worked with. You know, you get injected into this mix and everyone's doing something. Oh, we're upgrading to this, we need to set up that, we need to deinstall this, we need to like, it's, it's, it's all. This project is so important. Okay, why? And I'm a five why guy. I'm like a six sigma guy, like six Sigma Light, I don't know what you want to call it, but I'm a five why guy. And I have to tell you, with every company that I've gotten to you will get shot and I've yet to really figure out a better way because I am I'm like a blunt object. Sometimes I'm very you call it a big personality. I love that term, Jeff, you're a big personality. Okay, like, what is go? Does that mean? Right, but it's always hey, why are we doing this? Oh, we have to upgrade the servers. Okay, why are we upgrading the servers? Because Microsoft so we have to do that. Okay, why did Microsoft so we have to do that? Oh, because there's a thing that they're enhancing okay, do we need that enhancement? Oh, I don't know. I'm like, well, this is like a three million dollar project, like, and we have like are it's not even like what it's like. It's not like one guy or two guys in the basement. It's an army, right. It's an army where somebody snaps their fingers and there is an army of managed service providers, you know, big for like all these people are in motion to do this map monstrosity of a project. Right. Ye have program managers that are like, okay, we're upgrading this, right. And then I come into the room and I'm like and it's like almost like that balloon just just shoots out of the Du you know, shoots out the door, and I'm like why are we doing this? And every once in a while, like you know the guild, right, I get like somebody that's at a certain level above me that goes, Oh my God, like Jeff's right, why are we this? And again you have this titanic, this billion dollar ship, right, with a captain. You got a bunch of people rearranging the chairs on the titanic. Right, you got the guys like, you know, hey, they change out the tune, let's change out the men you like. None of the stuff matters, none of it matters, but the rearrange in the chairs in the titanic. And then you have a captain that more often than not says, you know what, I bet, if we gun it, we can split that iceberg and half. Right. And it's ego, it's pride, it's which, by the way, I have neither. I really I like I am if I mess up or if I do a project or if it's something like I'm the first one to go like yeah, you know, we tried, we failed. I missed that one, but it that's that's an anomaly that I've found. And you know, again, so many people could tell me different, but there's there's a lot of great friends and colleagues of mine that don't do it that way or they work with people that, once they set something in motion, that's that, senior vice president or whatever, they don't ever have a problem statement. Every project needs to be a problem statement. That's...

...it. And if you don't have that to start off with, you're done. But you said it earlier, Jeff, when we were talking. The problem statement for many is how do I keep my job right, all of that work, all that inertia of what I started to set out is going to help me stay employed right and have you work right and having the problems. They made it up for me. It is not about it, it is about outcomes and the problem statement needs to be aligned with what am I trying to accomplish on. Why are so? We had we would ask why one time and then what we would push on further. Is, and then what, and then what, and then what? Ask that next. What's next? What's next? Get to that final place where you've got a definition and if you can't answer it, then you're probably doing the wrong stuff of it. Gentlemen, I'm going to keep us moving here. I'm going to keep it. I'm going to beave a time keeper so we can get through all five, which I want a hair that's number one problem statements. Moving on to number two, Jeff, tell us what it is. So it's the people process technology. Right, it is. It is so often the answer and solution to all things. Anything. Is a new tool, right, it's a new tool. It's it's hey, we're going to bring in this tool, it's going to fix everything, and it's this incredibly crazy illusion, because tools don't fix people unless you're talking about like, you know, like Spanish inquisition, like you know, like you know, like the rack, like that was a tool that might have fixed the guy's attitude real fast because he was stretched out. But the things like that don't do anything. You need to have the people in process behind them. But I can't begin to tell you. You know, I'll get it. You shooting from the hip. I'd have to see ninety percent of the people that I work with and deal with on a day throughout my career. For some reason feel like if I give you a new hammer, like oh no, this is the new hammer, we have an old hammer. No, no, this one has like a different angle that gets the nails out better. Okay, who were going to give that to? Oh, I don't know, like somebody. And you're like, okay, you give it to somebody. You give it to the same somebody that had the old hammer. And here's the Shocker, right. The best part of that is is how many times I see the shocked look on people's faces. We're like, we got we spent so much money on this brand new MMER, the Best Hammer, the best of like Gardner said, this is the Best Hammer. You know, Home Depot Cells, like you knows, the best was rated forest, rated gardeners. Then they're in the visionary Quadron of Hammers and you give that same guy the hammer and then everyone goes like what the heck? Man, like what what happened? Like why is it suck? Why is it bad? Will? You gave the hammer to the same chipmunk. Right, you gave the hammer to the same you know, you keep whacking that Hammer. It's the same thing. You need to have people in place in the right roles to understand the right things, to understand the right problems, and then the process. I'll tell you, I've seen people without a tool and I see without a tool, but like I've you know, how many people have managed projects in excel spreadsheets, right, although I hate, I hate, I hate excel with a passion, with a passion, but I've seen project managers go like Hey, and I'm like, oh, got another spreadsheet. But a really good project manager right goes okay, one dot one, here's all the tasks, here's the den. They just cascaded all the way out and they make the calls, they have the daily stand up, they do all the things right it's excel right. Then you have a horrible program manager that's like, well, we need Prema Vera, if you guys know what Premoveria is. But it's like if you we need Premoveria, we tell we tableare the and they have all this stuff, millions of dollars worth of software, and the project just goes right in the toilet and you're like well, what happened? Well, well, this guy happened, or this woman happened, this person happened, whatever happened, it happened. It had nothing to do with the tools. We all know the tools can be good or they can make things worse. I always feel like it is it's kind of like a multiplier. Right, a good person with a good process, you put a tool on top that's even good or okay, it's like a multiplier. But if you...

...have a bad person with bad processes and only multiplies the bad processes and the it only amplifies the bad person, you like Oh wow, this guy was bad, now he's worse because now he has a tool behind them. It's like gang is Khn right, or any of the you know, you're hey, let's give me an army. You know he was bad to begin with. But let's let's put let's put some energy behind this guy this way. Is this when next thing comes into play? Definitely. You're a user. I love next thing and it's more because it's again number number three, if we could go like number three with a bullet. I strongly believe service desks and desktop support are going to be dead in five to ten years. It's one of the reasons why I got into the CHAP BOT space and the next thing space in the deck space. The digital looks like all of it, I have to say. All I started off at this. I start off at desktop support. I've owned desktop support, I've owned service desk. I've worned. I've owned them both at a bank. You want to talk about heartburn, right. I've owned it together and I have a ways to go. I think last time I checked, I think my retirement ages I was a hundred fourteen. I've been I've I got to figure out how I get there right. But I know that chat bots and bots and Aix, all of these things are going to take over desktop support and service desk very soon, in the scheme of time. Very soon, a decade from now, Tim Toma, we're not going to be calling a service desk and get a live person anymore. I mean and unless you're unless you're that sea level suite that breaks the rules, like white glove support, will probably be here to stay until human beings decide that technology really is better than the service they can get from people like that, just that elbow support. But I know so many people and I see so many things. I'm not a visionary, but I just it's kind of like just looking into traffic. It's we're going to be at a point where, vd eyes, everyone's just going to have whatever device they want. I mean, I pads already do that. I'd I take my ipad everywhere. It email works right, the Internet works, I can get to the stuff that I need. o three hundred and sixty five. I get to it and almost like the reset button on a Nintendo from twenty years ago, when it doesn't work, I just close it out, I reset it, it does some you know magic in the background and it works again. Is it a bad experience? Not Really, I mean it's it's what one or two seconds. But so many people are still again in that in that mode of how do I show value? You know, I used to go buy everybody's desk on a Wednesday afternoon and give them a hazelnut coffee and a high five. I'm desktop support. Yeah, and that's great, but I'll tell you what. Covid sure sped that up. All of the people that were used to being in the office and and saying, Oh, you know what, talk to Tim, you can get your copy of Adobe. You know, talk to talk to Tom. Tom's got, you know, the coffee of the month. He's the guy to talk to. Well, we've all been removed from that for a year and a half now and we all realize, like, you know what, I can just use the you know, I can just, you know, use the Chatbot to get adobe. How you need adobe is or license available? Yes, great, trigger installed. Wow, and guess what? A lot of people found out in the past year. It's faster. You're getting service, no pun intended service. Now you're getting what you want, what you need to do your job effectively fast. You don't need to hear about what you do. Hey, would you do over the weekend? How you do and what's been? I mean, look, I love that. I mean I'm all for conversation. That's all I do. Really bright like that's my, that's my passion. But when people just need little stuff or if a PC breaks or the VIDEA, they don't do they don't care fix it. But can I just be a commudgeont hit Jeff, I'm trying to keep us on this to the theme. I don't know what free is. Yeah, I understand the wider context, but how would you define it? So the the idea of the S La is still being relevant versus the XLA. Got It, got it, okay, that's that's it. And and the way I the my...

...my and I apologize. I should have been you know, keep you, I keep me, keep me on the keep me on the on the lane. I'll go. I'll go way off at outer space. We was seeking in from neck. You love of next thing. So I wanted to let it happen organically. Yes, so the S La, the way I explain it, is and my my analogy is this. The S La is your poor relative in the hospital and you know his heart stops for thirty seconds and the doctor comes in and says, yeah, but it started beating again at the under the minute marker. So we're good. and to me, like no, no, he was dead for thirty seconds. You know, you got brain damn as, you got all these other things. But while the s la the doctor's look the doctor coming in saying well, the s Sola at our host. You know, if the heart stops for more than a minute, then then we didn't do our job. But if it's under a minute, like he's cool, right, he's good, he's fine, like, elbow, and I like the guy on the on the table saying he's fine, look, it started beating again, it's good, like right. So the Xcela to me is no, no, no, he was dead for he's heart stop for thirty seconds, and that's thirty seconds of time. That was just the worst outcome possible. Within the next thing, platform, you have that heartbeat. You know when things stop, you know when applications crash. Right, and there is that. There's something that I love. Right. There's there's a there's a part of my role that I love, which is I can actually proactively call people like I mean we had we had some senior people where it was like hey, this guy might have just had some serious stuff go down. Get onto the a team, get onto the tiger team. Have them contact him. And boy, how cool is it? Right, how cool is it when somebody on the other side of the phone says hey, yeah, something did just crass. How'd you know that? Well, we're trying to make sure that we are on point and that it doesn't happen again. You know I'm saying, just like, just like, imagine like a traffic cop, right, preventing accidents. I. Oh, Hey, you know what, I know you were about to Tebone that guy at the intersection. We got you. Yeah, we use the firefighter analogy a lot. Right. The SLA is how fast the fire truck can drive, how quickly I can get to the fire and then how, quite fast I'm going to put it out. Well, how about we do something that prevents the fire to begin with? And, by the way, the firefighter, not this para Jennie firefighters out there, but in it. You probably cause that outage a month ago and you let the fire burn for a month and now you're going to show up with an SLA, put the fire on and say, Hey, we're good, we met our SLA. That's number four. That's the word. So funny, so great Segue, Tim that's number four. That's number four on my list. Hit Me is technicians that do whatever they can to solve the problem. That only creates a butterfly, butterfly effect of just heartburn. VIP support is probably one of the one of the worst er ones right, but in general it's Achamole. If you can't if us, as the people that are proactively fixing the issues and understand like the inner workings and the Matrix, US looking at all the ones and Zeros, and me being the analog element or the human element, to tie together the digital in the analog. Right, that's the two pieces right there. I am the human element that interacts with the digital and together in the blender. It's magic. Service desk and desktop support are in a roll now where they are not looking at the holistic view, they're not looking at the the the big picture of making things better. They're looking at this guy just called. His computer crashed, this is an error, this just logged this to something. Had An event happened. How do I get this guy bandaged up? Slap, you know, give them, give him some morphine. You know, give us, give some more Phine, but it turn it. Get on, whatever you have to do. Get this guy moving back out...

...the door right, which I've always despised. I've always despised the idea of that Deli counter time and of Hey, I call the service desk. Okay, is you going to help you? It's no, no, he's got ninety one seconds. Ten minutes. Yeah, that's good, but yeah, he's got ten minutes. It is it's like you're you're an ear you are an eer surgeon in the IT field. sobody comes in your door, they're just beat up there. They're in really bad shape. I was going to use a different analogy, but I'll just trying to keep it, you know, trying to keep it the kindergarden here. But somebody comes in that door completely destroyed and that technician now service TSCAR. Does top they got to do. They start grabbing stuff off the shelves. Okay, I don't have having rights. Okay, this is now. I don't have this, I don't have that. Okay, let me try this, Leonast all this. Let me. Let me reinstall uninstalled, reinstall, reboot, uniboot, superboot, whatever, boot right, all the above, firmware, upgrade BIOS, they throw every piece of Voodoo and magic and medicine that they can and now ten things are broken when they were only there to fix one thing. Right. But you know, the perception is the technician says, Hey, you know what it's is good, and the Guy Goes Hey, man, you've fixed my problem. You will like the laptop, like the hinge is like flapping right, the seed problems like spitting out CDs. Right, you know, there's like there's probably a there's probably a virus now on the machine, like because they had a like Oh, there's a key J and let me just put that in real quick. You need this right. All of these things, and I mean again, you know we all laugh about it, but I mean a decade or so ago. I can't tell you how many times I've bited a company that that happened. Right. But to their to their credit, they're trying to do the right thing for their that one employee, that one person that they're trying to software. A little bit of it is living on the adrenaline of, Oh my God, there's an emergency, I got to get this executive up and fixed. But there's a lack of the big picture. Right, not only for that one fix, but how many other people have that same problem that we need to buy some consistency, standardization, efficiency, there's so many things that we could we could talk about. That's so true to how many people have that same problem and every person at the desk probably treats it. I mean because again there's the knowledge. You know, again, you could argue managed service providers and internal, external, all of you. I mean you can. There's a thousand different avenues you can go, but but ultimately, and again, this is it. So number five. Am I cool to move on a number five time? Why is everyone's trying to retire me as the person introduced this time? You have one job, the comma on jobs. In trouble. You trying to make me redundant like the service desk guys. I see what's happening here is and it's going to say before we go in with five, it's going to the hat of my market insecurities. Already confessed. Now I've said my truth. Hand it back to you for number five. Okay, well, I felt, I feel like I was in trouble as what to make sure it's cool, like Jeff, Hey, Jeff, come on, like them. That's going to a similar with job I have. I'd like it. I love it. I love it. I number five is I would I would argue as controversial, and I actually when I went through this list, it's really a matter of people that are in their roles, that hate their roles and they're not passionate. And I know that's a hard thing to swallow, right. It's a hard thing to say. Well, you know, this guy's not either. There's a lot of people that aren't passionate about their jobs or careers and I get it and I'd say I actually literally yesterday and I I just put it on my linked in profile. You know, it's kind of a play on there's a there's a there's a like us. I think it's I might be Hindu, I'm not sure, might be Buddhist, about how everything in life is borrowed. Right, everything in life in bars borrowed. Right, you come into this planet here and then you're gone at some point in time. It's borrowed. And I kind of twisted it and said, well, you know, if everything in life is borrowed, why not borrow the good stuff? When I borrow the good stuff, I'm going to borrow old socks. I was well, get good socks, right, why are you know? I mean less you're into old socks and that case I I support you in your mission to enjoy old socks. But but the idea is,...

...you know, you should be happy with what you do. There's a there's a great book called the happiness hypothesis, but it's a great book to read because it kind of it kind of ties together these the links between things. Is What kind of causes that happiness. You know, the idea of a good the guy that does the service desk. That's like, you know again, turnover at the service desk, right, you know that you got like nine hundred people and like by next week there's another nine hundred people. But on occasion, right, I should even occasion. I I knew four or five or six colleagues of mine through and they've become unbelievably successful in their space. They love it. They love the service desk, they love the puzzle, they love seeing all of a sudden that they'll all the phones blowing up and knowing that there's a major incident, right and then trying to alert the right people, trying to to log all the things that are happening to create a knowledge based article at some point to kind of life plug it a certain way and it's not being you know, again, I often see like, oh, we have bad managers and stuff like that. It's it's not a bad manager to say to somebody, Hey, Tom, hey tim, I feel like your heart's not in this role and I it's probably easier as you move up right, as you move up the chain, right, you got the you know, you get the Guy, as my father used to say. You know, you got the guy scraping bird stuff off off and a fourteen windshield right, like that guy, you know. But who knows, maybe even that guy is like realize. Is again that the happiness hypothesis. Maybe that guy realized, you know, what me doing? This is giving that fighter pilot better visibility into this war that we're going into, and my job is just as important scraping this the gum and stuff off the F fourteen windshield right to ensure that that fighter pilot is is on point and he doesn't have any blind spots on the glass. That guy could come back and say my job's important, I love what I do and I understand the bigger picture of what I do, but most people, I would believe, would be doing that role at and saying like this is my job every day scraping gum off the F fourteen's windshield. Right and but it's a different point of view and that point of view can can make or break a team, and I've been judged on that and that's why I'm saying this is like controversial sense. I have been judged as a manager going to people and saying like hey, Tom hate tim I really don't feel like this is your role and I feel like I'm almost do I want to feel like I'm doing them a disservice by saying, Hey, you do it a great job, you do it a great job and everything's great. mean, while they're just right, it's it's my responsibility, is a good manager to say, I don't think this is your passion, and sometimes you coax it out of it and they say, yeah, you know what, I hate this job. Okay, let me help you. That's one of the great attributes of a fantastic leader, mentor coach. You have to be able to that's that's a critical part of managing people is to coach them and mentor them to get better and the role they're in might not be the right roll. Let's get you in the right seat. The other thing I took from that, Jeff and Tom Maybe do we want to think of maybe we don't. is next think equivalent to a guy with a windshield squeegee? I did. I did. Yes, okay, we could. We could see that, right, we could be humble. Right, it's visibility. I have, but again, I have. I have found it took a long time, but it's something that I did take from my father. It's how do you do? How do you work with the people within that space that are mostly introverts? Most people that I work with an IT are introverted. Most people that are. They like the tech, they like to focus. How do you tell somebody like that, with somebody like me, who's loud, I'm like a motorbike coming in just sometimes, since I again big personality. How do you come off not being criticizing, like not that, that being not not criticizing somebody saying like Hey, man, you know, you're not cutting it, you're not cutting it, you're not doing really well right here. How do you spin that into...

I'm trying to help you grow, I'm just really trying to help you be successful. And so many people really, I got so many people do it wrong and and really hurt yeah, without a doubt. There's IT's something I've worked on my entire career is the topic of feedback and I still haven't figured out which is easier, giving it or taking it, because there is a definite art to go to put towards giving feedback in the right way so it's not a stick in the eye, right that it's given with positive intent and not intended to tear somebody down. Yeah, it's a very tight walk. You know, I have a thing again, this again from my father. I can't I can't take this as mind my dad, but every job that I've started in the past probably fifteen years, and I've managed teams now for like two decades, but I've always started bringing in donuts. Now this is this is a great this is, I unguesst a controversial to write. My father used to always get donuts. Like donuts is like that universal thing, right, it's a donut. And at my last last company, the first week I was there, and I happen to start around Valentine's Day, and everyone may know this, but UNCAN donuts always has the heart shaped donuts. So my second week into the job, after I kind of like met the leadership, when I got to really kind of get to introduced to the team. I had twenty five technicians, project managers, I'd all asset management, all these different you know Ya, VIP. I got two dozen heart donuts, all heart donuts, okay, and these guys were really on edge. This was a role I was coming into where they had had really poor leadership. I brought those two dozen donuts in, all heart donuts, and in that moment, like half the team already was sold on me. It was too to again. Just imagine you're coming in very again. They were all very worried and I say they saw two dozen heart donuts and it was so funny. Every single one of the guys was like I was like, Hey, you know, I got book you grab a choice, grab a Donut, and they're all heart donuts. Every single one of the guys are just like yeah, yeah, now you're fired. There you go. If you could ever imagine a point where everybody's anxiety was immediately like reduced almost to nothing. To make sure that you never miss an episode, subscribe to the show and Apple Podcast, spotify or your favorite podcast player, and if you're listening on Apple PODCASTS, make sure to leave a rating. Of the show. Just have the number of stars you think the podcast deserves. If you'd like to learn more about how nick think can help you improve your digital employee experience, head over to next thingcom thank you so much for listening. Until next time.

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